Episode 24: Parenting with Pride – with author Heather Hester

The Discussion

AA: The Dalai Lama once said, “once your mind is calm and full of love, there is no room for hatred or fear. Others will trust you because of your open heart.” This quote opens the book, Parenting with Pride by Heather Hester, and it resonates deeply with the mission of Breaking Down Patriarchy. And yet finding access to that calm and loving perspective isn’t always easy. As much as we try to be centered and accepting. Sometimes unexpected challenges appear and we don’t know how to move forward at all, let alone with a calm mind and an open heart. Today we’re going to talk about one of those unexpected plot twists. In particular, finding out that your child isn’t cisgender or isn’t straight.

The challenges faced by LGBTQ youth are tremendous, and we’ve talked about these challenges multiple times, and we’ll continue to talk about them. Today we’re going to look instead at the challenges faced by the parents of these amazing kids. After all, no child comes with an instruction manual, and sometimes parents of LGBTQ kids are left flailing, trying to understand and embrace their children, but without guidance and trying to keep them safe in unfamiliar waters. Fortunately, however, there is support out there. Like this fabulous new book that I just mentioned, Parenting with Pride: Unlearn Bias and Embrace, Empower, and Love Your LGBTQ+ Teen by Heather Hester. And I’m very happy to welcome Heather to the podcast today to talk about these unique hurdles faced by these parents and also how we can all learn to be better allies in supporting queer youth and their families. So thank you so much for joining us today, Heather.

HH: Thank you for having me. I’m delighted to be here.

AA: Heather Hester is the founder of Chrysalis Mama, which provides support and education to parents and allies of LGBTQIA, adolescents, teenagers, and young adults. She’s also the creator and host of the Top 1% podcast. Just breathe parenting your LGBTQ teen. As an advocate and coach, she believes the coming out process is equal parts, beautiful and messy.

She works with her clients to let go of fear and feelings of isolation so that they can reconnect with themselves and their children with awareness and compassion. Heather also works within organizations via specialized programming to bring education and empowerment with a human touch. She’s delighted to announce that her first book is out in the world as of May 2024,

Parenting with Pride: Unlearn Bias and Embrace, Empower, and Love Your LGBTQ+ Teen, which we’ll be talking about today. Married to the funniest—I love this sentence, Heather—married to the funniest guy she’s ever known, and the mother of four extraordinary kids, two of whom are LGBTQ and one sassy mini bernedoodle, Heather believes in being authentic and embracing the messiness you can almost always find her with a cup of coffee nearby, whether she’s at her computer, on her yoga mat, or listening to her favorite music.

HH: Thank you for that introduction.

AA: That is lovely, Heather. And I’d love for you to start us off by telling maybe a little bit more about yourself and specifically the personal journey that brought you to write this book. Why was this book necessary for you in your life?

HH: Sure, sure. So I’ve always been a writer. That’s what kind of my love has been, my passion has been, and I did freelance writing for a long time, but it was more corporate. And as I was raising my kids when they were little, that’s what I was doing. But I’ve always loved to write and so I knew at some point in my life I would write a book that was kind of on the bucket list of things to do. And I love books, like I was complimenting you on your books. If you could ever get me a gift, like books are it, I love them. Love them. So that was always like the goal… now when my son came out as gay and we began that journey with him, and I know we’ll talk about this more as we get into the podcast, but I got to a point where I realized that I wasn’t finding what I needed. Like there were great books on like: here’s kind of like more clinical… here’s what’s going on, or here’s what to do, but in a sense that I was like, that’s not what I’m looking for. Like that’s not what I need. And are there other people out there that are like going through these layers of challenges? Because there’s layers of things and we had many layers that all at once showed themselves.

So about 18 months in, I realized that I had been journaling this whole time. Like as we were going through all this stuff, I’m like, I could actually take all of this that I’ve been writing and turn it into a book. And you know, before anybody questions or wonders, yes, my kids have all been on board with me writing about them and talking about this. Everything that I put out there goes by them first. So if it’s anything that might be questionable…yeah.

So as I then started putting the book together, I started writing an outline and I started working and then the pandemic hit. So I just shelved it and I was like, well, you know, we’ll get to that later because there’s so many other things going on in the world. And then two years ago I met somebody who was like, you know, you should have a book. I want to introduce you to my publisher. It was like one of those…it was meant to happen in that time and I’m still so very grateful to Familius, you know, because they typically do take books that are more children’s books, and so this was something that was a little bit out of their realm to take on as a project and I’m so grateful that they did.

It was such an incredible process and I’m so proud of it and I’m so grateful that it is out in the world as something that both tells a story, but also provides, I think, very actionable, practical strategies, steps, tips—all of the above.

AA: Yeah, for sure. And I would say too, for any listeners who have an LGBTQ child or family member or friend, or anyone you love, this is so, so helpful. So definitely do check out this book. I agree there are more social media accounts with some helpful tips and strategies and stuff and like, here’s what you might be tempted to say, here’s what you could say. There’s starting to be more material like that, but still not enough. So I’m so grateful that you published your experiences and all of this wisdom.

HH: I think it’s funny that you say that because I think had he come out now and I have access to all the social media that’s out there, right. That I had access because The Trevor Project has been around all these years and PFLAG has been around all these years and GLSEN and all these wonderful major national foundations. They had websites or they had little tiny presences here and a lot of it wasn’t geared necessarily toward helping the parent help their child. Right? So that’s where I was like, well, there’s a need. I just saw such a need and I’m still working to fill that in a way that I believe is still necessary.

AA: Yeah, it really is. Well, let’s start from the beginning. Maybe you can talk with us first about the coming out process. What guidance would you offer for parents whose child has recently come out or they have? Sometimes you just have a feeling and you know it’s coming, so you think their child might be coming out soon…

HH: Sure. So I think that understanding that there’s a process was one of the most amazing things that I learned, and we learned about it probably six, eight months after Connor had officially told us he was gay. So there’s basically six steps to the coming out process. And once I started learning what they were, and this is why it’s really helpful for parents, wherever you are in the process, wherever your child is in the process, but to really understand what they are because then you understand why they’re doing some of the things they’re doing or saying or behaving or feeling. All of the things, right? It just helps give you such a deeper understanding of what they’re going through, how they’re feeling.

One of the most extraordinary things to me to find out was that Connor… he was 16 when he came out to us. He had known since he was 13, and he was going through like those first two steps, like realizing, being in denial, going back and forth for three years by himself. And I think about that. I still…it makes me teary.

AA: Yeah.

HH: And he laughs at me now. But just the thought of; those years are awful enough without having that on top of it. So I think for parents having that understanding of like, your child’s probably in stage three or four by the time they tell you, but to understand this is what they’ve gone through. This wasn’t like they woke up on a Tuesday morning and they’re like, eh, I think I might be gay. It’s something that they have thought about, deeply wrestled with, negotiated with all the things. And I will say this to any person who argues with me that it’s a choice. If you have ever known anyone who has come out, whether it is gay, lesbian, transgender, non-binary, any of the beautiful orientations or identities, that’s not a choice. Them realizing who they are and wrestling with that, and then kind of coming to terms with it; it is an extraordinary and oftentimes terrifying thing to be witness to and to support someone through. And oftentimes, as was in our case, trying to keep them alive long enough to be able to like kind of get to those next stages of like understanding.

And so I would highly recommend if nothing else to have an understanding and I can give you great links, too, where parents and people in general can learn more. I write about it in the book as well, but just an important thing to know because then you can kind of sit back and be like, okay, this what kind of support they might need.

AA: Oh my gosh. Yeah, I do think that is so, so helpful. And just thinking of people actually in my personal life that I’ve been through the process with multiple experiences have been coming to my mind. And yeah, I sure wish I had known both of those things actually too. Like to know that it’s kind of a tip of the iceberg moment, that moment that you find out that that’s their identity or their orientation or something—it’s new information for you, but it is not new information for them. And it represents, like you said, this massive amount of probably turmoil that they’ve been going through for a while. I wish I had known that.

And yes, the other thing I’ve seen, and it was actually a little bit worrying to me to see this person that I care about a lot and just to be like, where’s the person that I knew before? And they’ve become a little bit almost… I don’t want to say fixated because that sounds so negative, but yes. So very focused on that one element of who they are, that I was quite disoriented by that for a little while and just like, should I be worried about this? Is the whole self going to come back at some point? And I wish I had known that, so thank you.

HH: Of course. Well, again, that was something that I knew in time for my second one, but not for Connor. We were kind of smack dab in the middle of that. And you know, a lot of times it coincides with them being teenagers, so it’s hard to kind of split apart like what’s developmentally appropriate behavior and what is what they’re dealing with—like part of their figuring this stuff out. So again, layers.

AA: Yeah. You know something that just occurred to me this moment too, that maybe can help listeners to kind of have empathy. Another time that I’ve seen this is when women have a feminist awakening actually. And then everything is about gender, everything is about sexism. Everything is about patriarchy. And that’s all they can see for a while. And that part of their identity is like, oh my gosh, I’ve been oppressed. And that’s all they can think about. So maybe if that’s happened to you as a straight woman, as a listener, that you can go like, oh, okay. And eventually you get your whole self back online. But for a while there’s this discovery process that does become the most important, the most acute pain point, the most important thing. And then you have pride that you’re a woman anyway. Does that sound…?

HH: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love that you said that actually. Yes, because I think that is so true, and I’ve thought about this many, many times in the past eight, ten years because I had my own kind of parallel process going on as far as like how I had grown up and the things that I was taught to think and believe growing up, and then as I kind of had slowly been shifting, but this was like a massive shift. Like this just sped everything up.

So in a lot of ways I kind of had some parallel things going on where I was politically, religion…I had a whole deconstruction process and I didn’t realize that was a thing. So being like, oh, that’s what that is. But kind of to your point, everything feels very big and it’s like the pendulum… I think of it as a pendulum, like it swings way to whatever direction where you’re feeling all of this and learning about it. That’s where you are. And then once it kind of settles and integrates, and then you’re like, okay it’s a big important part of who I am, but it’s not all consuming in all of my thoughts.

AA: Yeah, exactly. Okay, I have another question specifically about parenting. So I watched, I don’t remember the title of this comedy show, but it’s Hannah Gadsby, an Australian comedian, and it was a hilarious comedy show. So if you haven’t seen Hannah Gadsby, look up Hannah Gadsby. So Hannah Gadsby tells a story about their mother, and at some point after they had come out to their mother, their mother was very loving and supportive. But later, I think as it was kind of setting in for her, she said, I so wish that I hadn’t raised you as if you were straight. I regret that I didn’t know how to raise a gay child. I raised you as if you were straight. And that really hit me that anyone who is straight themselves and has been raised in such a heteronormative environment that… like our generation, I feel like you didn’t even really talk about queerness. You just didn’t talk about it. And so for these parents who are like, okay, I love my child, and you get this information, but you’re like, I don’t know how to raise a queer kid. I just wanted to frame it cause that was kind of the story that came to my mind. What are some of the most significant challenges that parents of queer kids face as opposed to parents of straight and cisgender kids?

HH: Yeah, absolutely. Wow. I love that the way that the mother phrased that because it is so very true and that is such a great articulation of how I think every parent of a straight, cisgender parent of a child who does come out, feels. I don’t know how to do this. And I like to think that the majority of parents are like, I don’t know how to, but I want to learn how to. So I think that there is a ton of education that goes in and the parent really has to be like, okay, I’m like ready to go. I have to learn. So there are things that… and I think depending, again, on the age, it depends on where they are, whether they’re younger, adolescent, teenager, early adulthood, but certainly dating and sex, and that is one of the biggest things that, especially if you have like my son being gay, I could talk to him all day long about straight sex, but I did not know the first thing about how to prepare him to be safe in the world.

And I think too, for our generation, we’re very much like, I don’t know, should I talk about that? Like, can I say that? That feels kind of weird to say that. And so there’s this whole piece of becoming comfortable with understanding how things work. Understanding how to make sure not only are our kids knowledgeable, because if we don’t have the information for them, they’re going to find it. They will go out there and find it, and nine times out of ten times, it’s going to be in a way that’s not safe, which is what happened to us. And so I think that is such an important thing to learn about and just kind of… I talk about being uncomfortable a lot in what I do because this is, it is uncomfortable, but when you’re uncomfortable, that means you’re growing. And so I say just move through it. Know you’re going to be uncomfortable. Know that you’re going to read things that you’re like, oh, I didn’t know that. And you know, just all kinds of things like that. So I would say just be prepared to learn. To find the information specific to your child’s orientation or identity or both. Be ready to be uncomfortable. Be ready to ask questions. Find someone that you can ask questions to, whether it’s a therapist, a social worker, a coach, listen to podcasts, ask questions to your favorite podcast. Go to all these wonderful organizations. A lot of them will email you back if you send very direct questions.

AA: That’s great. But what I’m hearing you saying also, Heather, is like pretty much that education process needs to happen quickly as soon as you have this information. Because it’s likely, as you’re saying, that your child has already been looking online for stuff, and so taking their hand and being like, let’s learn together from really trustworthy sources is really important. And you’ve got to get out in front of that as fast as you can.

HH: Yes. And I will tell you just, I do have on my website a resource page that has quick links to everything that you perfect all of these different topics. So, you know, by all means, go there and just like click through and it’ll be faster for you. And I would say again, like it doesn’t matter what age they are, whether they’re 10, 15, 20, 25. Sit down with them and do it. Because otherwise they are going to be getting on Grindr, they’re going to be Googling stuff and there are people out there that are just sitting and waiting to take advantage of these kids.

So buckle up. Be prepared. It’s okay.

AA: Yeah. Oh, that’s great. And advocate when necessary. If you feel in your gut, like when you’re with your child, that there is something…whether it’s you need to advocate at school, whether you need to advocate with a doctor or a therapist. If you need to get a professional involved, do it. Don’t sit around and question if that feeling’s right or not. It’s right. Just do it.

AA: Thank you for that. One thing that I really appreciated about this book is that it takes what can feel like an enormous, overwhelming topic, and it breaks it down neatly into four pillars. I love a well-organized book. It’s very, very helpful. So you write about these four pillars: Embrace, Educate, Empower, and Love. And of course we want listeners to go out and pick up the book, so you don’t have to share all of the spoilers, but I wonder if you could just speak briefly to each of these pillars and why they’re so critical for parents.

HH: Sure. Absolutely. So actually a couple of years before I wrote the book, I had come up with these pillars because I was looking for a way to… like you, I like things organized. I was looking for a way to organize my website and organize just these different things that I had been writing about and articles that I would find and all of these good things. And as it kind of came into focus what it is, is like the order of really parenting, well, parenting your LGBTQ child—honestly, it works with all kids, but it’s really specifically geared towards your LGBTQ kids—so the whole idea is Embracing whatever is at hand, right? So in this case, it’s my child has really understanding what that means for your child, what that means for you, what work you need to do, what work they need to do.

And then it moves into Educate and unlearn bias. And I added in unlearn bias actually, when I was writing the book, because as I was writing things and researching, I realized that a lot of my process was unlearning things that I had learned. That was true for so many people that I worked with as well. And I thought, well, this is something, let’s get rid of the stigma here. Because I think so many times people hear the word bias and they’re like, oh my gosh, you’re pointing fingers. We all have them, right? We all have biases. Just be okay with that. And know that you’re going to have to work through something and that’s okay. That’s part of being human and so that was like a nice extra added layer to just like the education of the coming out process for the parent, which is a thing and really important to embrace. And then I talk a lot about, you know, mental health and substance use and support systems and all of that type of thing.

And then Empowering is really just exactly what it sounds like, the steps that we go through to empower ourselves to become empowered so that we can empower our children. And then of course, my belief is that we cannot truly understand nor give unconditional Love without all the other pieces. So really, understanding the true meaning of unconditional love was such a fun thing for me to realize. And I think every parent wants to give that to their child, right? And so I think that is something that’s really important. It’s an action. It’s something that we actively do and actively have to work through our own things so that we can do in the best way possible.

We all have biases. Just be okay with that. And know that you’re going to have to work through something and that’s okay.

AA: Thank you for that. After reading the book, it seems like the changes and the challenges which come with raising an LGBTQ child can bring some discomfort for parents. Again, especially, I think we’re going through like this generational change is what I feel where we are finally talking about it, embracing it, our laws have changed, at least here in the United States and in many countries through the world, though some countries are just woefully really behind in that process. And that’s a different conversation we could have. But I feel like, again, the way I feel is like the world I lived in as a child is so different from the world I live in now. And so the parents of queer kids now are figuring this out as we go with no role models and examples. So this is extremely uncomfortable, probably because we were raised, again, like I said, in such a heteronormative environment with so many biases. Oftentimes, especially those of us who come from conservative religions especially, and so a parent can just be like, I’m out floating in space. I don’t even know up from down here. And getting out beyond our comfort zone feels really, really scary.

So I guess do you have any tools for that specific thing, that fear and especially the fear of like—it’s one thing if I make a mistake with my child and it’s like, oh, I told him this factual inaccuracy and now I can go back and be like, oh, sorry, I told you that happened in that year and it was actually that—like super low stakes making a mistake like that. But if you make a mistake that hurts your child, it is terrifying. Nobody wants to do that. What are some tools that you could offer parents as they navigate that scary unfamiliar landscape where the stakes are pretty high?

HH: Yes. Oh my goodness. I love that. That was such a great example to bring up because I think that is something…well, it happens to all of us, but it’s something that our generation, I think of parents are really beginning to learn what to do and that the biggest thing is taking accountability and accountability is hard, but I think in that, to your example that you just gave, especially if it was pre them coming out or while we’re learning, even once we have learned, we’re going to say dumb things. You’re going to make a mistake, whether it’s not using the right pronouns or whether it’s making an observational comment that you’re like, oh, that was so dumb. Why did I do that? Because you are still working through your stuff, this stuff that is just so ingrained that you don’t even realize it’s there. It takes pulling apart and it takes work. It is really hard work, and while you are doing that hard work, you are going to make mistakes.

You are going to say stupid things, and I think that every single time, the minute that you catch yourself and the minute you can acknowledge that and be like, oh my goodness, I’m so sorry. I am still doing my work, and I apologize that that hurt you. And so I think that is the first…again, it’s that whole discomfort thing is so very uncomfortable, but also give yourself some grace. This is not going to happen overnight. Learning, all of this doesn’t happen overnight. Becoming comfortable with all of it does not come overnight and working through all of your stuff, especially depending on the layers that you have going for you does not happen overnight.

The fear is very real and the fear can be about the future, the uncertainty, that not understanding, the not knowing the what ifs…And typically fear is stuff that we can’t control and I think that one of the most helpful things in initially working with fear and working through fear is naming it. Really understanding what those things are that you are afraid of. And I’m, again, a very big proponent of writing things down because I think writing through things super helpful and I actually give a ton of journal prompts in the book for doing exactly this because it is so very helpful to go through this. You know, writing with your hands, there’s the brain-writing connection. So do that. Try that, see how that works for you, I think would be another big thing.

And I would say the third thing that really worked well for me and I know works well for many, and it’s something everyone can do—it does not take money—is learning how to meditate. And meditation comes in a million different forms. It doesn’t mean that you have to sit still and clear your mind. In fact, that’s impossible. But what it does do is it helps you become very aware of your thoughts. It helps you become very aware of what’s going on around you, and it helps you stay present. And so it gets you out of the past stuff and the future worry, and it helps you stay right where you are in this moment, which helps you be more present for your child. Which again is the ultimate goal, especially if your child is in crisis or struggling in any way.

AA: You even include a whole section on self-care in the book. And that was surprising and interesting to me. And then I was like, oh my gosh. And it’s for, I think, the very reason that you just said, for our own mental health, for us as parents, or for us as adults who love these kids, but also because that is critical to enable showing up in the right way that they need. Right?

HH: It is, it is. So it teaches them, like, we didn’t learn that these things were good for us and really important to do until much later in life. And I think, gosh, you guys are learning how to do this as teenagers and young adults and how great is that? Like that is such a gift that we can give them. And again, don’t worry about perfect. There’s no such thing.

AA: Yeah. Do you have any specific tips in addition to meditation that you recommend for parents?

HH: I talk a lot about listing out the things that I love to do. So the best way to think about it is when you think about what helps you refill your cup, so to speak, that helps you just show up better in the world.

AA: What are those things?

HH: So I think having that kind in your side pocket of, well, if I want to show up better right in the present, then okay. I can take like 10 minutes to meditate at the beginning of my day, or, you know what? I have a lot more. I can really just… my mind is more clear. I can work better, I can show up better all day long for all my people if I work out, if I go for a five-mile run every morning. If I’m super, super stressed out, do I need to really do some deep internal nervous system work? Or do I need to go get a massage? Do I need to just go for a long walk or have a conversation with my best friend? Or is it the deeper levels of like figuring out where this is all coming from? That’s self-care. So making your own personal list of your levels, like what is like just top level, I can do this really quick. Or what’s like, this is my goal for the next three months. I really want to do this work and how do I do that?

AA: That’s perfect. And I’ll just throw in, it’s just really sinking in how important that is too, because like you just mentioned a couple minutes ago, especially if your child is in crisis… I think of times where my children have gone through difficult things and sometimes the way that manifests is a lot of anger. It can be anger that’s directed at me sometimes, even if it’s not about me, it’s direct at me or I’m just there and I’m the safe person and so the anger comes at me, a lot of emotion, and that can take the form of depression and sadness and I just know at every stage of parenting my kids, if one of my kids is encountering huge emotions like that….if I am not really centered that can sometimes overwhelm me and then I’m not at my best as a parent in the moments that they need me to be my best, the most…It can be really challenging, so it’s just sinking in even more as you’re talking about that actually how critical it is to take care of ourselves.

HH: Yeah, because it can be intense. I think that is something that is really just becoming in our generation of parents and kind of on the latter end, right? As our kids are getting a little bit older, realizing how vital this is and how vital it is to take care of ourselves, and that it’s not selfish to take care of ourselves. It’s actually selfish to not take care of ourselves. And so I think I made a whole chapter or part of a chapter in the book about this because it was something that I realized later in life and later in parenting that I was like, oh, if I had known this earlier, right? Like if I had known that if I take better care of myself, if I take those moments, then I don’t feel as beat up when kind of something happens like your example. Or I don’t freeze when something like that happens, I’m able to be fully present. And I’m able to be fully calm and just hold that space for them when they need it. So it is so critical to figure out what it is that works for you and to have all of your tools lined up and ready to go.

AA: Okay, let’s look at some specific scenarios, and I’m thinking first because of my own personal background and context, thinking first about parents from conservative religious backgrounds that might have been taught and absorbed negative beliefs about LGBTQ people. For all of these adults that grew up in pews, hearing actively homophobic things, what would you most like for those parents to know? How can they bridge that distance to be there for their queer or questioning children?

HH: Well, I will say that that was me too. I grew up in a pew and a lot of my young adulthood as well. And I remember the night that Connor came out to us and it was in quite dramatic fashion. But I remember being on the phone with him as he was telling me and thinking, there’s no way this child is going to hell. That just can’t be possible. It cannot be true and I need to understand this because so many of these things that we hear and we were taught as we grew up in the pew, right? And my grandfather was a Church of God minister, so like I get it. It’s a lot. Everybody has their own experience with this. But when that happened, I was like, I just need to understand this better because I think that I really didn’t question what was being taught. So I would say: it is okay to question. That doesn’t make you not a Christian. It doesn’t make you a bad person.

And it is okay to seek, and I will even go as far to say seek truth because what I found is that the verses that are used…there are six of them. They are really actually very mistranslated and kind of to the point of the name of your podcast; it’s very patriarchal and the more that you kind of pull it apart and understand that there were very specific reasons that the men who did these translations, added these words in and changed the wording of things for the time where they were in history. I mean, it’s fascinating if this is kind of your thing that you like to learn about. It’s really a fascinating lesson into history, specifically biblical history. But that’s what I did…I mean that was literally one of my very first questions when I met with our first therapist was, I am terrified my child is going…like he can’t go to hell. I just need to understand. And so just sought out book after book after book after resource after…I just called people that I found and talked to all these different people. So I would say to you, if this is you it is okay. You are not alone in feeling this way and feeling very confused and feeling frightened, and there’s a ton of information out there to help you through this and it is my very strong belief that our children are not going to hell. And so I’ll just say that is the end there of that, but there is a lot in between. So if you’re curious, again, on my website, I have links to all my favorite resources on this topic.

AA: Wonderful. And I’ll say for any listeners, because my particular background is in the Mormon tradition, and so there’s like different flavors of homophobia that you get in like Pentecostal Christianity versus Mormonism versus traditional Islam or Judaism or all the different religions have their own versions and yeah…For Mormons who haven’t yet heard of Lift & Love, that’s a wonderful social media account and Encircle is wonderful and I’m sure there’s initiatives that are specifically tailored for each kind of religious tradition and those Christian kind of sola scriptura denominations that are like, well, if it’s in the Bible that means it’s God’s word. So to your point, it would be very, very important to those translation histories and like, why is this in the Bible? Who actually wrote this and when and what was there kind of vested interest or their angle on translating it a certain way. That would be a very, very important resource.

HH: Exactly. I mean, it is fascinating. It was such a fascinating thing for me kind of in that part of a part of our journey. And I will also say, you know, obviously I shifted a lot and just my eyes were opened a lot and I feel like there are people in my life who did not shift, and so that does happen too. So just know that that will happen and there’s nothing that you can do about it, and that’s okay. And there are ways to still have relationship and figure things out. I think for a long time I thought, well, I’m shifting why aren’t they? This is their family member. So, then you get kind of past that and you’re like, alright, well… that’s their thing, right? Like that’s theirs. And you again, you cannot control any other person’s response to anything. You can only control your own.

AA: I mean, that’s got to be one of the hardest parts in the aftermath is like, who is my child safe around? And if it’s your own, like you’re implying like sometimes it’s grandparents that will not get on board or aunts and uncles and oh gosh, it’s so hard. It is very, very hard.

HH: And yeah, I would be happy to talk to anybody about that offline because we could probably have a whole other episode on that. It’s very, very tough. But again, you know, every single day I am like, this is my kid. These are my kids. And the more that…you I’m obviously doing this for however many years now, like all these kids, all these families, I think, oh my goodness, this is who we’re advocating for, right? Like they need our love and they need us being present.

AA: Well that’s why your book is so, so important. Okay, so shifting to a completely different scenario. I’d like to talk about parents who have an LGBTQ child and maybe didn’t grow up in conservative religion. They want to embrace them with an open heart, but they might feel like, oh no, I’m good. I don’t need any guidance at all. Maybe kind of a secular liberal family that might not realize that they too have absorbed bias from the culture. And what are some of the slipups that you see even this type of parent making, and then how can those be avoided?

HH: Oh my gosh. Okay. I seriously… your questions I love so much because I literally just had this exact thing happen. I was doing a speaking engagement for a corporation and they were broadcasting it out to like their different locations and at the end I was taking questions and somebody came on and so it was like a question that was coming on speaker and they were like: We are very evolved in our house and my daughter did not need to come out to us because we had no expectations for who she should be, and went on this several minute layout of we are very evolved and so the hour presentation you just gave was unnecessary, essentially. So when they got finished with the whole thing, I said, well, you know, that’s incredible. And I’m really impressed and obviously you are not exactly who I am giving all of these tips to. However, I would just offer that whether we are fully accepting and have no expectations for who our children are going to be in the world, or the other end of that spectrum, our children are still in the world, they’re still affected by what’s coming at them, right? So whether it’s social media, whether it’s people at school, whether it’s just people in the community, they’re still affected by that. So we have to show up and be aware of that and talk about that at bare minimum. Have conversations about the things that are going on in the world and acknowledge that. Ask them how it’s making them feel. Acknowledge that it could be painful, that could make you feel sad, that could make you feel upset. That could, depending on again where your child is age-wise and developmentally wise, but yeah, I think that that would be… that was kind of on the fly, that I answered that question that way, but I’m super happy that came out. That’s what it is. They are affected by the world, so we do need to be very conscious of what’s coming at them, and that’s another good reason for us to stay really plugged in and paying attention.

AA: Right. And that actually was my next question. That’s a perfect lead in. What are some specific things that parents can do to protect children? I mean, you can’t, to your point, you can’t isolate them from the world. Even if you tried to, it wouldn’t be healthy for them anyway. They have to be prepared to go out and live full productive lives, right? So how can we talk to children about the things that they might encounter out there that which are different from cis and heterosexual kids, right? How can we protect and then also prepare our kids, right?  

I live in a…I call it a bubble. I mean, I live on the north shore of Chicago and so while there is a little diversity, there’s not a ton. And so I have a couple of friends who work within the high school that share with me things that are being said by students that are being said by teachers and kind of getting an idea of what’s going on. My kids will come home from events and be like, oh, well this was being said over there, so making sure like you have your resources for information that are good, solid resources of information, whether it’s within your community or the greater nation and world, and then sharing with your child as you feel is appropriate.

So I think that there’s a lot of value and having kind of current event conversations in ways that are not going to be scary for them, and that are offering ways that, you know, if you found yourself in this situation, what would you do? And kind of puzzling that out with them and our dinner tables, typically that’s the place…so I always give the dinner table. I think that’s the easiest place to do it. You have kind of a captive audience, they’re eating and it’s just easier to have these like little… it seems lighter, you can put it out there instead of a sit down at the couch where your child’s like, oh my gosh. Like, what are we doing?

So I think having like roleplay type sit, you know, conversations and then I find value, or I found value as my kids have gotten older and them knowing that A: our home is a safe space, but that they can kind of use me as either the bad guy or the person that they need to. Like my mom just called and said I need to go home. You know, my mom is being nuts tonight, so I need to go home. Whatever it is, I’m okay with that. But I think that helps them have that…like if they find themselves in a situation that is really uncomfortable or things are being said and they don’t know how to handle it, knowing that they have that and then they can come home and discuss it with you. And you can come up with a plan for the next time that that happens.

AA: I love that. I actually really love that strategy that like, here’s the nest. You fly right back to this nest when in doubt, if you don’t know what to do. Then, I mean, for me personally, I love both pieces of that because the safety of coming back, but then the other half of that, what you just said, I think is so critical: then we make a plan for next time, because I think sometimes when we want to protect our kids then, but if we don’t prepare them for being able to handle it on their own, then they can become overly reliant on the parent they can. And so having both pieces I think is just really great.

HH: Yeah, I think so too.

AA: So my final question for you, Heather, is about advocacy and allyship. And in your book you write that being an ally is “not just who you are, it is the action that you take daily.” So what are some of the daily ways that we can practice allyship and better advocate for the LGBTQ youth in our families, in our communities, and in our lives? How can we be better allies?

HH: Absolutely. Oh my goodness. There’s so many different ways. I mean, I think one of the things you can do is really tap into what your talents are, what your resources are. And I don’t mean just financial resources, but I mean people that you know and places that you have access to and I think that you can be an ally in your own home by just showing that you are, wanting to learn that you are learning, right? That you are actively consuming information that is broadening the way that you understand who your child is, who the LGBTQ community is, because you know, it’s one thing to understand who your gay son is. It’s then another thing to move outside of that and say, okay, well I don’t understand, my gay son has a friend who is transgender. I don’t really understand that. I want to understand that better. And so, that’s kind of your base point is really becoming well educated. And that is a great way to be an ally. You can step outside of that. Be in the schools, right? Make sure that your school is a safe place. What things need to be kind of put into place? Are there clubs that are safe like a Gay Straight Alliance, that type of thing. What is the administration like at the school? Does your child have a safe person at school they can go to, or a safe place that they can go to? So really feeling that out and advocating if necessary, and depending on where you are in the country, in the world, you know, I will say the best place for you…

Okay, I’m going to back this up for a second. ACLU.org has a running list of all of the bills that are in various forms of legislature across the country, and it’s been sitting around between 500 and 600 for the past couple of years, and most of them, 75% of these bills are anti-trans bills. We had gotten to a point where they were that number was going down…I fear that that’s going to start going the other direction again. And so if your talents lie in any way in the legal, in anything legal, if you like forming any kind of protests or writing letters to your state legislature; there are so many different ways that you can kind of get in this legal fight, legal advocacy and that’s a whole other thing that you can become really knowledgeable about.

Oh, but there’s just a million different ways. Just understanding. Things like on your Zoom, if you are on a lot of Zoom meetings for work, having your pronouns in your signature. What that does is it signals to anybody else on that call that you are a safe place. That they are safe with you, and oftentimes that will start conversations. People are curious, right? It kind of helps people feel more curious. Donations are always a great way to be a good ally. If that is your comfort zone—I know that not everybody is comfortable doing so—if that is what you can do. Give, there are so many amazing organizations out there that you can give to, and they definitely need the money right now.

AA: Yeah, for sure. I’ll even throw in too, and you mentioned sharing the pronouns. I know that it’s almost cliche to have a rainbow pin or jewelry, and I know that sometimes people will say like, oh, that’s not meaningful. I will say that one of my very best friends who’s gay just the other day said he went and got his blood drawn for some random thing and the person who was drawing his blood had a rainbow pin and he said he noticed his body relax, just seeing it, and he didn’t even realize that he was tense until he sat down and saw that and felt his body relax and thought, oh, this person that’s sticking a big needle into my arm. He respects me. I’m safe with this person. And I thought, I’m so glad to know that because sometimes I’m just like…is that just performative or it’s just meaningless, right? But it wasn’t meaningless to him. And so I was really glad to hear him say that.

HH: Yes, me too because I have often wondered that too, like wearing a t-shirt or wearing having something on your bag or whatever. That is really great information to have because yes, that’s it. It’s very easy way to walk around in the world and mark yourself as an ally in a safe space.

AA: Well, Heather Hester, this has been a wonderful conversation. I learned so much from you and from your book. And I guess the last thing I’ll ask you is just where can listeners find your work? Can you share again, the title of your book and then maybe the name of your website and, and everywhere where we can, we can follow you?

HH: Absolutely, yes. So the name of the book is Parenting with Pride: Unlearn Bias and Embrace, Empower, and Love Your LGBTQ+ Teen. The longest title ever.

AA: It’s fantastic. I love it. I love it.

HH: And then my website is chrysalismama.com, and it’s chrysalis like the butterfly cocoon, C-H-R-Y-S-A-L-I-S. Everything lives there so you can find everything there. And the podcast is Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen, and that’s on every platform. So a lot of times if you just Google my name, Heather Hester, these things will pop up. So all the places you can find me, and I love getting emails and I love hearing what people think. I’m so delighted. Thank you so much for having me today.

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